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Settings advice

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Settings advice

Post by Dozer on Tue 03 Jan 2017, 12:02 pm

I need some advice about settings. More specifically what I need to know is what the hierarchy is when altering settings as the ground gets noisier and noisier and bloody well noisier!

Lets start with settings that I am currently using on this area.
Sens 9, Difficult, stab 25, high yield, audio smooth off, volume 4. threshold tone suits my aged ears.

What I need to know is what do I change first when the ground starts to howl and more importantly why do I do that as opposed to some other setting. What is the downside of doing something, all those sorts of things.

I am finding little bits and looking at the ground as well as digging a few test holes, I don't believe there is any great depth to it. Am I missing any deeper bits by playing with settings? Damned if I know, which is why I am asking all you wise people.
If there is more at depth then I will be able to get a POW approved and put the yellow tector over it which would be good.

My machine is approx 9 months old and in most ground is smooth and stable (just like me) but this area is giving me the proverbials.

As an aside, the SDC2300 works happily in the area and has pulled a few itself in places that the Z has had the shits.

I also read somewhere (I think minelab tech talk) where JP stated that if the ferrite balance is not correct then you can be missing faint signals, so how do you get the ferrite balance correct in this sort of ground?

The area is a gentle slope of a few degrees with lots of quartz, laterites and mafics sticking up. Dips and hollows are the noisy parts, presumably where the mineralised stuff has washed and settled.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

Dozer

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Re: Settings advice

Post by davsgold on Tue 03 Jan 2017, 3:13 pm

Those settings should work ok, but if your not using the yellow ferrite correctly when you ground balance over it you will get the noises your talking about.

You have to swing over the ferrite with the green GB button held in (in auto tracking mode) and keep swing over the ferrite with the button held in until you get a good quiet sounding detector, ie: good ground balance, once this is achieved release the green button and start detecting.

Pick up the yellow ferrite and take it with you, you may need it again during the day if the ground is really bad.

cheers dave
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Re: Settings advice

Post by oneday on Tue 03 Jan 2017, 3:22 pm

the z doesn't like moist soil either.
if still noisy try bringing down the sensitivity--5-7
creeks will piss u off as well--some r as noisy as a night club on a sat night

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Re: Settings advice

Post by Dozer on Tue 03 Jan 2017, 4:22 pm

Thanks Dave but I probably didn't explain myself adequately.
I know how to GB using the ferrite but what I am trying to work out is what to do when the ground changes fairly rapidly. Do I stop and re-balance with the ferrite, do I de-rate the sens. then re-balance, do I de-rate sens and carry on, do I spit dummy, throw the thing in the car and get the SDC out.
Or do I find out the best way to deal with this rapidly changing ground and try that.
I could of course wind the threshold down to 2 0r 3 and hope I don't miss too much but that isn't learning how to deal with this type of ground.
Dropping the sensitivity to 4-5 didn't make a huge difference this morning. At one stage I had it on 4,smoothing on low,extreme ground and it still howled like a banshee. Frustrating as it can become lovely ground within a metre and then back to ugly.

Ray to get wet ground I believe rain is necessary and this part of the Leo area seems to have missed out on any recent wet stuff from the sky.

The area is producing enough little bits to keep me looking so I am trying to determine how to best deal with it and of course hoping that enough will be found to justify putting the big yellow detector through it. Access for the float will be no problem nor will be getting a POW so I will keep plodding along.

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Re: Settings advice

Post by oneday on Tue 03 Jan 2017, 5:31 pm

is there another 7000 with u --mate --detecting with u?

have u cleaned the skid plate to b sure..??

just trying to eliminate problems befor we change the coil.

do u have a 19" coil handy???

have u done a complete reset on the machine when u turn it on--it asks u whether to Keep or Reset??

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Re: Settings advice

Post by Dozer on Tue 03 Jan 2017, 5:52 pm

is there another 7000 with u --mate --detecting with u?

No I am on my own out there, but the 4500 also is having issues so I am confident it is an evil ground issue. Machine works fine elsewhere.

have u cleaned the skid plate to b sure..??

Yep and I just checked again, all clean.

just trying to eliminate problems befor we change the coil.

do u have a 19" coil handy???

Nope can't justify one as yet.

have u done a complete reset on the machine when u turn it on--it asks u whether to Keep or Reset??

Yep did it the other day and then again today. Same issues and appears specific to this particular piece of ground.

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Re: Settings advice

Post by oneday on Tue 03 Jan 2017, 6:15 pm

then I think u nailed it with a piece of shit ground that might be worth taking a few samples from .

maybe the 45 with a DD coil might give u some satisfaction--failing that the pub sounds like a great place to b....

cheers mate

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Re: Settings advice

Post by davsgold on Tue 03 Jan 2017, 6:22 pm

G'day Dozer

Yes no worries.  Well in bad ground in WA this is what I have found effective, turn the threshold way down to 1 or 2, I think your calling the threshold the (stab) (which the 7000 doesn't have) and turn the sens way up to like 20 and keep the other settings in High Yield and Difficult, smoothing OFF, volume and target volume about half way ie: 10 or 12  you wont miss much at all like this, (basically Bogens settings)  

Do the ground balance with the ferrite in auto tracking and leave it in auto tracking, dont touch the green GB button again unless your re doing the GB with the ferrite, simply lift the coil about 100mm up and down a few times to get it to do its own auto GB.

I find this method works quite well and the noise is non existent and the gold signal comes through nice and clear.  This method in not the best or prefered method for large deep gold but works well for the smaller shallower stuff, like small stuff down to around 300mm deep.

Anyhow your got nothing to lose by trying this method and if it dosn't suit you its easy to go back to your other settings.

cheers dave
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Re: Settings advice

Post by Wedgetail on Wed 04 Jan 2017, 7:46 am

Dozer,

Here's my take on what you've got. First I had MAJOR issues all across and anywhere near Leonora as you know, but that could be a whole separate story.

Second, if my 7000 is still in Leo with "you know who" than take that one out and try it against yours. It may be in Kal, not sure. Get the missus to ask "on Sunday"!

Third, I reckon any 7000 wouldn't be able to handle what you have on these 'hot channels". Those channels have collected the heavier ironstone and decayed BIF. They are very reminiscent of the edges of salt lake and banded iron formations (BIF) back when the SD series were the latest and greatest. The only way we could get anywhere was to walk "along" the channels and not walk "across" them. This made life hard but it solved the problem to some extent.

The "summing electronics" of the 7000 will make your problem even worse if you operate in "Auto GB". When in "Auto GB" the 7000 makes use of an algorithim that "collects" data from the ground and uses that to sum up and "smooth" the GB. This algorihtim takes about 20 minutes to "loop around" after which time it "drops" the first few seconds of data on ground that you walked over and replaces it with data that you are currently walking over. It's a "summing loop". Simple stuff in oil & gas work.

So what happens is that you are doing OK with nice stable and quiet machine in "Auto GB" and suddenly you walk across a "mineralised channel" (salt or BIF). But the machine is still summing and data looping in auto and can't accomodate or sum the huge change in GB data that is now coming in. It takes 20 mins to complete the loop and slowly reset itself. But the dramatic change is just too much so it "hee haws" or just screams its bollocks off.

After a while you then hit a patch of comparatively quiet ground but the 7000 is still trying to GB that "hot channel" that you walked over 10 minutes ago. Now the "auto GB" is out THE OTHER WAY!! So it's screaming again!!

Best way out of it and this is not gonna be perfect because the 7000 simply doesn't like BIF gravel or salt, is to switch to manual ground balance and rebalance every time it starts screaming. But by running on "manual GB" you will lose a slight amount of depth, that much is a certainty but a necessity. Other than that there really isn't a solution.

Try that and try judging which way the mineralised channels are running. When you get that right, then walk along them and not across or traversing them. If you need practice - go to The Island at Cue or Nannie at Meeka and have bash there!! That'll teach ya! Twisted Evil

WA - the worst place in the world to use a detector. It's a 7000 killer.

JMO.
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Re: Settings advice

Post by Dozer on Thu 05 Jan 2017, 6:03 pm

5 AM this morning and I am off to the howling zone. Low 30's temp and a pleasant breeze from the east. I tried Wedgie's manual balance idea and very quickly abandoned it. Then on to Dave's idea of threshold way down and sens way up. Better by far and sort of usable but only sort of. Still wailed a tad but usable.
A small .6 at 200mm spoke to me but that was all.
I had to leave early so I will go back and try again on Saturday and hopefully I will have the use of another 7000 for a few hours. I don't think it will be any different to mine but time will tell.

Les the idea of walking with the mineralised ground instead of across it renminded me of an area on a lease I have just out of town. When I was using the 4500 on it, I would always get a howl when i was walking East West. If I turned and went North South I could get rid of the howl.
I put it down to the mushrooms I had for tea the night before or perhaps the mould on the rye bread. I never thought it would be something to do with the lay of the land and the crap that was lying on it!

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Re: Settings advice

Post by Flouro on Thu 05 Jan 2017, 7:45 pm

Hi Dozer,

The old salt lake trick of a DD coil in Cancel might get the result your after, one thing for sure it was very good for picking up tiny nuggs like .1's a bit like the SDC in its normal state

Cheers Ron

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Re: Settings advice

Post by Dozer on Fri 06 Jan 2017, 3:03 pm

Wedgetail organised for me to use his 7000 on the ugly area as a comparison. Same response to the ground with same settings and using the ideas that Dave suggested.
I am confident that the issue is definitely not machine related.
I owe you one Les.
I have been doing some reading and came across this on detectorprospector forum
Great post Steve, that really makes the Gold Modes undersandable and explains the different types of ground that each mode should be used in. However, some may be confused wondering what, then, do the Ground Types of the GPZ 7000 accomplish? I've found that the Gold Modes act as a sort of "fine tune " for each Ground Type; for example, when I'm hunting in the Normal Ground Type and High Yield Gold Mode and the ground is too hot for this combination, instead of simply going into the Difficult Ground Type I will first try General Gold Mode and if the ground is still too hot, Extra Deep. Extensive testing on undisturbed targets in a variety of ground types has revealed that more sensitivity is retained by this fine tuning method than by just choosing the Difficult Ground Type right off the bat.
This is more like what I was trying to find out about how to "derate" the 7000 without losing too much response to middle size gold. The area I am working does not have a reputation for multi ounce nuggets but does produce some 3-20 grammers. These are what I am hoping will be at modest depth in this hellacious ground. I also believe in the toothfairy so allow me my delusions.
Tomorrow looks like being a good day so I will head out there at some stage and play some more.


Last edited by Dozer on Fri 06 Jan 2017, 3:04 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added stuff)

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Re: Settings advice

Post by goldtalk on Sat 07 Jan 2017, 7:12 am

Hi ALec, this may not be the answer your after but it sorta is......before I would look at throttling back the machine I would look at your swing technique. The absolute first part of "quieting" down your 7 is going to be a VERY slow sweep speed (to the point where your going to fall asleep) a bit higher off the ground (say 50mm) and an absolute obsession with keeping the coil even through the entire movement. I have found that with previous detectors you can tend to be a bit rough but not so with the 7 and when it's noisy and it has the "hee-haws" (Les) then slowing down to snails pace is critical in my opinion. It brings another thing into play and that is the harness. If your not 100% comfy then you won't be swinging slow and even. We'll be back home soon and I'll show you the sweep speed I use in noisy ground....even though it's not to do with settings, it's my first line of defence against noise.

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Re: Settings advice

Post by Wedgetail on Sat 07 Jan 2017, 7:45 am

Not much use as a patch hunting machine then?? It'd take ya two days to get from your workshop to your front gate! Laughing
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Re: Settings advice

Post by oneday on Sat 07 Jan 2017, 7:57 am

I didn't think the problem area was that big anyway.. further more if Dozer was finding gold in that area it would pay u to slow down and do a job on it..

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Re: Settings advice

Post by Dozer on Sat 07 Jan 2017, 11:45 am

Swing speed is critical I agree, however if I was any slower in this area I'd be in bloody reverse.
As you probably know I don't use a harness, the machine hangs off my right hand and the swing is short and slow. If ground is shitty I slow down even more but in this case the ground in question is ugly and a small area.
If I even think about moving the bloody coil it gives me the howl of a politician that has had its pension cut. Actually moving the coil means the whole damn parliament is wailing in my ear.
Anyway I won't be worrying too much about this area again, I took the crowbar and a bad attitude to test depth. Some but not enough to warrant any use of the big yellow machine.
The area is on strike and very close to a mine that will be starting in a year or so which meant I had to make the call on scraping it. Unless something dramatic happens it won't be getting scraped.
Thanks for all the ideas.

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Re: Settings advice

Post by Lookin on Sat 07 Jan 2017, 12:23 pm

Here's what I use for noisey ground....
Volume 1
Volume limit ( which is really target volume) 20
Sensitivity 20
Threshold is turned down until all background noise disappears quite often to 1
General
Normal

Headphones are best for the small signals but the big ones will blast your ear drums
It works for me
Good luck

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Re: Settings advice

Post by goldtalk on Sat 07 Jan 2017, 1:31 pm

Hi Les....your quite right...but I'm talking when the ground is real ugly but overall I'll swing at least half the pace of a GPX.
Alec....how big is the area? I've had small spots that were similar...usually only a few square metres....are you 100% sure your not over something good??...have you run a loam?..you never know??

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Re: Settings advice

Post by ol mate on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 9:55 pm

GDAY GUYS AND GALS
have any of you good folk in k town had any luck using the extra deep mode on your zeds

ol mate

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Re: Settings advice

Post by oneday on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 6:56 am

out at Bernies u would be foolish not to be in Xtra Deep especially in that crab hole country--wear snake guards--

as far as the 3 new patches go well a lot of the gold is about a fott to 2 feet down and General seems to prevail.

Lightning will certainly give u the shits at the moment due to the stormy weather..if its completely overcast then u r on your own..

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